the term business aristocracy

If the term business aristocracy means anything at all, then Nusli Wadia, epitomizes it. Though it is not an adjective, he is not very fond of the term blueblood, which is usually used to describe him.

In part, it describes his lineage, his heritage but it also describes the state of mind. In many ways, Wadias are part of a generation that should actually have been out of the picture as Indian industry has changed and Nusli Wadia has been through very tough times but he stuck it out and he has prospered.


In this heart-to-heart with Vir Sanghvi on his CNBC-TV18 show Tycoons With Vir Sanghi, the veteran speaks on issues his life has always been synonymous with: the legendary battle with Dhirubhai Ambani; his grandfather, the founder of Pakistan, Mohammad Ali Jinnah and the recent controversy relating to the Jaswant Singh book.

Below is a verbatim transcript of the exclusive interview with Nusli Wadia on CNBC-TV18. Also watch the accompanying video.

Q: I began talking about generational change, it is no secret now. Around the time you really entered the business your father was on the verge of selling out to the Goenkas; you fought him. You said you were going to stay on, you said your future was in India, you are going to make a go of things even though he thought India was changing for honest and decent people to do business. Looking back, after all these years, do you have any regrets?

A: No regret on the decision. The regret is that in some ways my father was prophetic. Prophetic not on the business environment or the opportunity or India being a great country, and we are Indians and we should be here and we have stayed-on is no issue. I am 100% sure that is the decision I took there and I will take for the rest of my life. I will never leave here. However, when he said it would become very difficult to do for honest people, the answer is yes, that he was right about. In fact if you ask me candidly, it’s worse than he would have imagined.

Q: Explain that.
A: With liberalization one thought the involvement of government and the activity of government in business would diminish––it hasn’t. It has increased because the richer opportunities in business are still controlled by government and when they control them that is where it starts.

Q: It is no secret that in the 1980s, particularly, you went through a very bad patch when there was almost a sense that government was ranged against you. If I remember correctly, they even tried to deport you and claimed you weren’t an Indian––at that stage were there any regrets?

A: No, not at all. There the issue was I did not agree with what was happening and as a citizen I was expressing my own view. Ramnathji and I worked together, and frankly the issue was that Ramnathji took on the establishment and I was part of that activity and I have no regrets for it.

Q: But you are probably the only businessman I know who the government has tried to deport, whose business rivals have tried to kill him, who has virtually the entire Government of India against him, who has fought back and taken on the Government of India. Nothing into your background born into this nice genteel Parsi family suggest that you were capable of doing it––was it difficult?
A: To start with, you have only talked of one half of my family.

Q: I was going to talk about the other half in the second part.

A: So when you say the genteel half, I don’t know whether it’s only the genteel half that is in my genes.

Q: But it wasn’t the Wadia part surely?
A: Probably not, in the sense that to stand up, I think, came substantially from other genes which are quite controversial at the moment, but the issue was standing up and that is what happened. Historically, whether you agree with it or disagree. So I suppose some genetic transfer took place.

Q: So do you recognize Jinnah genes in you?
A: 100%.

Q: In what way? What do you think you inherited from there?

A: One inherits the genes of ones’ family, both sides of the family.

Q: I would say, having know your father that what you have inherited from him is essentially honesty, integrity, belief in loyalty, decency and his charitable disposition––the sense that you have to do things for the community that you had greater responsibilities than just making money, that half is clear. The other half what do you inherit from the other side?
A: Also integrity.

Q: I said integrity?

A: The other side is integrity.

Q: Really, explain that? He is a controversial figure so tell me what you think?
A: Integrity is a cause of controversy very often because a man sticks to his beliefs and even Jinnah’s worst enemy would say he was the man of highest integrity. Intellectual and financial, of course, there was no issue. He made his own money; he did not have any opportunity to lack integrity. He was a self -made man, and apart from that he earned every cent that he had. So there was no integrity issue there but intellectual integrity nobody ever denied. He didn’t say one thing and do another. He did what he said what he was going to do.

Q: He was also a fighter. Is that where you got it from?

A: Partly may be. I think so because my father was a much softer, a gentler person.

Q: Jinnah was a tough guy. He was a fighter. He was the guy who never let go.

A: Yes he stuck to what he believed and he pursued it. You can agree with what he pursued, you can disagree with what he pursued––that’s the debate at the moment for which people are paying the price.

Q: When you see this debate happening, many of the people involved are actually very close friends of yours; Jaswant Singh, it is no secret, is a close friend of yours.

A: Yes a very close friend.

Q: LK Advani who is perhaps somewhere in the middle, Arun Jaitley who is clearly on the other side––all these people are your friends. How does it feel looking at it because it is really your grandfather they are discussing?

A: I don’t know how to put this, but in the case of Jaswant Singh he wrote a book. I don’t think anybody has a right to say that he doesn’t have a right to write a book. I don’t think anybody can condemn him for having done so. They can disagree with what he said. They can challenge what he said but I have read the book, not in totality, and when I read the book I certainly didn’t find anything offensive in what he said about Patel. To my mind that’s a total fiction which was created to meet an exigency and to justify an action.

Q: You don’t think that’s why they got rid of him. You think it was an excuse after the event?

A: There are six references to Vallabhai and all six references are on six pages out of 600 and not one of those references is offensive. On the contrary, it actually sympathizes and empathizes with him.

Q: But actually they began by saying that they were expelling him because he supported Jinnah. The Patel issue was an afterthought perhaps.

A: I don’t know what happened there but I am disappointed because Advani’s statement on Jinnah, to which he stuck and for which he very sadly paid a price and which hurt him, frankly what Jaswant Singh said was less. If you ask me what Advani said was great deal stronger than what Jaswant Singh said.

Q: So why are there double standards?

A: That you must ask them. How can I answer that?

Q: Mr. Advani is one of your oldest friends. You have known him for some 30–40 years?

A: Yes.

Q: How does it feel when you see him in this situation?

A: Sad, very sad.

Q: I obviously don’t know him as well as you do but I somehow imagine that he would have come out if not in favour of Jaswant Singh at least at personal level may be made some attempt to reach out. Instead he seems to have retreated into a shell.

A: I cannot understand that. I haven’t spoken to him but frankly it is out of character for him. I am a little surprised and I don’t know why but one day when I meet him, I’ll certainly ask him.

Q: On the subject of Jaswant Singh. One suggestion in the BJP’s put about is that you actually financed the book, that you made Jaswant Singh do it to glorify your grandfather. Is that accurate?

A: Using intemperate language on television is not actually allowed otherwise I would really say something on that. That’s nonsense. Absolute nonsense, I mean a man is going to spend five years writing a book for Nusli Wadia––what has Nusli Wadia got to do with Jaswant Singh? We are friends. You and I are friends, so tomorrow if you write a piece in Hindustan Times or you write on something, you wrote recently on the Ambanis, therefore did I influence you? Did I fund you? I didn’t even know you had written the thing.

I knew Jaswant Singh was writing a book on Jinnah simply because he asked me only that if I had any papers or anything which I could lay my hands on, and frankly, I didn’t. I was four-years old when my grandfather left. All his papers are in Pakistan, etc. and he accessed everything from wherever the libraries were or the authorities were and that’s it. Finance him? Why would he need my financing? He has a publisher.

Q: And why would you need someone to glorify Jinnah?

A: Frankly, my grandfather is my grandfather––that’s not going to change. The fact that I am proud of him is not going to change. I don’t need Jaswant Singh to write a certificate for him. I don’t think he needs a certificate. So where is the issue of my funding Jaswant Singh?

Q: But you are aware of this sort of thing has been said?

A: No I didn’t know people had said that I funded it.

Q: (a) People have said you’ve funded it (b) that you put him up to it because you were close to him.

A: I never put him upto it. In fact, he never discussed it with me until I believe because he mentioned to me look I have got a manuscript which I have written on your grandfather and if you have any photographs, etc. I would be grateful for the help that you could give me. He never met my mother, never discussed with my mother. Never interviewed her and never discussed with me. He never interviewed me on Jinnah––nothing. It is total fiction, and unfortunately, it is actually to try and kill the credibility of his book and it doesn’t succeed.

Q: They have certainly killed his political career haven’t they?

A: I don’t know anybody’s political career ever gets killed.

Q: You’ve seen the BJP up-close. It used to be said when the BJP was in power, you were the only man who could walk in and out of Advani’s house and Vajpayee’s house and talk frankly to both of them. Do you recognise the party that’s done this?

A: The fact is that I grew up in a sense––and that’s a contradiction. Now if was to try and get the book done written by Jaswant Singh––hypothetically––why would I need to do that when I had already got friends in the BJP and what will I try to accomplish. Now tomorrow you would say Advani made these statements. Now was I in Karachi with Advani? I, therefore, sponsored his trip to Pakistan for him to make these statements––these are all nonsense. I think we shouldn’t really bother to respond to this. But coming to the other question which you asked, I got to know Vajpayee and Advani through Nanaji and I am talking about 1966. Now from 1966 to 2000 approximately when you know people obviously you have met them and when you ability to meet them and talk with them, have dinner with them, interact with them in all the years they’re out of power––why does power change that? It doesn’t and it shouldn’t, at least, I hope. And so my relationship just continued as it was.

Q: So given that you knew them so well, are you surprised by the way the BJP has behaved?

A: I am surprised yes. I am very surprised, I am saddened and appalled.

Q: That strongly?

A: Yes I am appalled.

Q: Have you spoken to Jaswant Singh since he has been expelled?

A: Very many times. He is a friend of mine.

Q: And have you spoken to Mr. Advani since?

A: No.

Q: He is also a friend of yours.

A: He is a friend of mine, but I don’t what to say to him because this is a decision which I am not able to fathom and I haven’t been to Delhi and I don’t want to communicate to Mr. Advani on the phone it wouldn’t be proper on an issue like this. But when I get an opportunity I will certainly be very curious to know what happened and why it happened because I think it is very unfair.

Q: We talked in the first segment over the Jinnah controversy which has been much in the news. Another controversy in the news is the Ambani brothers. I know that the Ambanis for you is water under the bridge. That many of the old enmities have been buried but could you have ever seen a day when something like this would happen?

A: Frankly, I have been candid with you but I don’t want to get into that subject and it is simply because it is not my business. It is something which is happening within a family, between two brothers, I am in no position to judge who is right or wrong. I can only say one thing that it has been my case always that people should not profit at the cost at the state. I haven’t changed that position and so to me the right outcome would be that the state is not the victim of profiteering.

Q: That’s already a position.

A: It is not a position because I am not then judging them. It doesn’t matter to me who it is––whether it is A or B or C. It is a general statement. That’s has been my issue for a long time and that’s one of things I always believed. People should make good profit, good returns, etc., but if you manage the system, whoever you are and profiting from that, that I think is something which I don’t subscribe to.

Q: What about your case because you’re in a sense similar situation to your father? What advice would you give them? Do you think things are going to get worse?

A: If they get worse or better is not the issue. What’s the issue that we are Indians and it is our job if we want to live in a society which we belong to which we do and partake in that. We take the benefit of it, we get the fruits of it, we’re children of India and India has been our home and it has been very kind and good to us. We are very fortunate people. Compared the most of our people in this country, we are very fortunate. There are millions and millions of starving people; we are very lucky. So if we are lucky we owe it to try and change things that improves not only, there are lot and I am not quantificating, but actually improve the climate in which people live and work and do something which makes a difference. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to make much of a difference.

Q: What would you have like to have done?

A: Certainly, seen that things moved in a direction of decisions coming on merit. On the involvement and interference of the government not being what it is, corruption certainly going down. It is a very sad day when one reads in a newspaper the Prime Minister getting the CBI go catch the big fish. Now what does that tell us? Prime Minister of India saying it go and catch the big fish. Where is the big fish? They are not very far from where he is. So he saying do that––that’s his frustration.

Q: And he is an honest man.

A: Very honest man. I think India is extremely lucky to have him.

Q: And yet we cannot seem to have even with such honest people in charge. Nothing seems to make a difference?

A: I don’t know may be even the system seems to be overwhelmed. It just seems to overwhelm. Others have tried to break the system and they got overwhelmed.

Q: I said at the beginning that you once took on the Government of India and the Government of India fought you and it became a very bitter battle. I know, and you have spoken about this, it is shortly before Rajiv Gandhi died you went and saw him and you had a long chat, I know this because he mentioned it to me. Were many of the differences resolved?
A: There were no differences. I will tell you one thing when I said to you others tried to beat the system and the system overwhelmed. I think he was one of them. I think he was a man of integrity and an honest man the system did not allow him to function. And I felt very sad, he tried very hard and then the difference that came about between us where not differences between us they were concoctions and fabrications which were done by people and that created a sort of psychosis which then led everybody to talk him up into saying you are threatened and he is attacking you and which I wasn’t. I tried at that time very hard to get in touch with him and I was not allowed to get in touch with him by the people who were around him. So when everything was over and the temperature had come down and Rajiv was no longer in power when we talked, we actually talked like that whole thing was an aberration.

Q: Apparently you spent much of the night together, you went over and you just chatted and chatted?

A: We chatted till about 5 am in the morning and it actually was like the whole thing was an aberration and I really regret those two–three years were lost as a relationship.

Q: And by the time you actually resolved it, it was too late?

A: There was nothing to resolve, it was a conversation with him––why, what happened, what went wrong? And I said, I think we both got taken for a ride and there were no differences between us. There were really none, it was just that people created that, and unfortunately, one thing led to another and then it went out of control.

Q: Both Rajiv and you lost out as a consequence?
A: Absolutely, there were no winners in that and both were losers.

Q: People have often asked why you don’t join politics––you have pretty much achieved what you set out to. People said, and I don’t mean to be unkind, especially when the Ambani were on the ascendance, Nusli Wadia is really not up to the job and he cannot run a company, etc. You since proved that that was not true, you made huge success of many other businesses even with Bombay Dyeing, the land redevelopment, etc. You are a very successful businessman today is there anything left to achieve in business?
A: No, I have not been anywhere as successful as many of my peers because they have grown much faster than me.

Q: But you have been as successful as you wanted to be?
A: Business doesn’t excite me that much. I am not a die hard businessman, unfortunately, it’s really not what gets my adrenalin going.

Q: So why not politics?
A: Yes, but I don’t know but politics, I don’t know where I would go. When I say where I would go means not ambitious wise, I don’t know what I could subscribe to.

Q: The BJP?

A: No, I subscribe to many things and I still do and there is no question about that but I cannot subscribe to many things and the question is how you weigh it, what do you do?

Q: So you are saying there is nowhere to go?
A: It’s a dichotomy in my mind. I would like to do something but at the same time I don’t know where to manifest that desire. And I don’t think I will be a very good politician?

Q: I think you will be a brilliant politician; there are all those Jinnah genes in you?
A: No because I am too blunt and too straightforward. I will say as it is whether you like it or not and sometimes that is quite costly to do that and I don’t think in politics it works. It doesn’t always work in business but in politics it works even less.

Q: So we don’t know where you are going to go at the moment?
A: And at my age?

Q: You aren’t that old honestly?

A: Getting on.